Teacher Feature: 3 Educators on Turning Quiet Students into Confident Contributors

Thank you to Danielle Thurm, Lily Carse, and Rachel Oliveira, teachers from Villa Duchesne (MO), for sharing their R.E.A.L. life with us! They spoke with us about the impact that R.E.A.L. has had on student learning at their school and about why teaching these skills feels more urgent and necessary in today’s world. This interview has been lightly edited for clarity.

Names: Danielle Thurm, Rachel Oliveira, and Lily Carse

Hometown for all three teachers: St. Louis, Missouri

Current School: Villa Duchesne (MO)

Teaching assignments:

Danielle: My current teaching assignment is all of our 7th graders and about one-third of our 8th graders.

Lily: I currently teach all of the 7th grade, one section of 8th grade, and then a section of high school as well.

Rachel: This year, I’m teaching 8th grade, 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th grade, and 12th grade between the two semesters. So 8th through 12th!

How would you each describe yourself as students in three words?

Lily: It’s kind of interesting because I actually went here for high school, but we didn’t obviously use R.E.A.L. back then. I was very detail-oriented, consistent, and dedicated.

Danielle: I would agree with that from having known Lily as a student. I never had you in my classroom, but I always heard good things about Lily Carse and what a great student you were, and I observed those characteristics.

Lily: Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

Rachel: Thinking about what kind of student I was in high school, I was very curious—just intellectually curious. Creative, not so much in an artistic way, but I was kind of a creative thinker, and I was always looking for connections. I like to identify: how do these different ideas, maybe different subjects, connect with one another?

Danielle: I was very serious. I got really annoyed when other students weren’t on task, or if the teacher strayed off what we were supposed to be doing. So I was probably a little obnoxious, but I was very serious. I was very outspoken. If we’re only talking about English, I was really confident. I was the kid who never proofread her work, thinking, “I got it, it’s fine.” So, yeah—confident, serious, and outspoken.

When it comes to class discussion, what is your “why”? What feels compelling and important about teaching discussion skills?

“If we’re going to have civil religious relations, civil politics, civil anything, we have to start with home base, which is civil discussion skills. If students can’t do that in the classroom, we can’t expect our students to go out into the world and do that.”
Lily Carse, teaCHER, Villa Duchesne (MO)

Lily: I think a lot of what we try to teach our students to do at Villa is to find connections and to think outside the box. That’s a very Villa thing, and I think that R.E.A.L. helps our students to do that out loud. I also think that today’s world needs more compassion, and we also need more grounded civil skills. If we’re going to have civil religious relations, civil politics, civil anything, we have to start with home base, which is civil discussion skills. If students can’t do that in the classroom, we can’t expect our students to go out into the world and do that.

That’s such a helpful way to put it—you’re moving the thinking out into the open instead of keeping it in a notebook or on the page. For girls who are nervous to share, I love that idea of doing the thinking “out loud” so they can all learn from it.

Lily: Yes, and from a history-specific perspective, it helps my students to think thematically, and because in middle school they’re moving into that formal operational stage from concrete to abstract, if a kid isn’t quite there yet, watching other kids model that helps them to get there. I think R.E.A.L. really helps them to do that.

Danielle: I think my why has probably changed since I started using R.E.A.L. When someone first approached me about R.E.A.L. and said, “We’d like you to get trained in this; it would work well in middle school,” my first thought was, “I love talking about books. I can sit around and talk about books all day.” But so often, when you’re younger, you think talking about books means either you like it or you don’t, or you understand it or you don’t. R.E.A.L. allows them to realize that there’s more to a discussion. You can dig so deeply into the discussion.

Echoing what Lily said, I teach about women’s rights in the Middle East because we read I Am Malala, and I’m currently teaching a book that takes place during the Holocaust in Poland. To get them to discuss those sometimes uncomfortable things in our past in a really safe environment teaches them how to have civil conversations about uncomfortable things happening in the world today.

I think my “why” today would be because it’s for that one kid who doesn’t ever say anything in class. When you put them in a small group, the other girls in the group will say, “Come on, you got this—everyone let her talk.” They make space for each other. It’s really neat when you see that one kid say her idea and the other kids in her group are snapping because they agree. To see their faces light up that they were given space to say something and were affirmed in that way.

That’s beautiful. I’m so happy to hear that. Rachel, what about you?

‘R.E.A.L. puts students in the driver’s seat. It centers the student experience of learning rather than the teacher having to try to help them grasp these learning objectives. They are able to learn and to help one another.”
Rachel Oliveira, teacher, Villa Duchesne (MO)

Rachel: I really relate to what Lily and Danielle said. I have taught these skills in 9th grade, but I’ve also helped students utilize many of the skills during their sophomore and junior years. I love that they are transferable horizontally—across different classes—and also across the grades vertically. It has helped students to read texts more carefully and more critically. It especially gives the opportunity for more introverted students to think about what they want to share. And it’s also helpful for students who are very extroverted but don’t often take a beat to think about what they want to say before they just start talking.

It has also helped them in their writing—they come to the task of writing having already thought about the topic deeply, having had a lively dialogue with their classmates, and even having had their ideas refined by the process. For me, especially working with older students, I’ve seen how that can enrich the writing process for them, because they’ve been able to talk out these ideas and be challenged and pushed to think more deeply or differently about something that maybe they thought they had already made their minds up on.

Lily: I want to second that. The thing that I like about it, and I was not expecting when I started R.E.A.L., is that it’s so accessible, especially in middle school and especially now in our time. I read a statistic the other day that a relatively high percentage of 8th graders around the country are not at reading level. At our school, we probably have a higher percentage at grade level than other schools, but still, we have a lot of students with accommodations or learning disabilities, specifically in reading.

I think that being able to talk about something out loud instead of having to read it or write it makes thinking so much more accessible. Everyone can do it, and it’s less scary.

Rachel: Yeah, a lot of students who maybe struggle in other learning situations can shine, even quiet students. I’ve seen them find more confidence in their voice and what they have to share. And it’s these soft skills that AI is not going to replace—no matter how advanced technology becomes; you can’t replace those face-to-face dialogue skills that we’re trying to help them hone.

The other thing is I love that it puts students in the driver’s seat. It centers the student experience of learning rather than the teacher having to try to help them grasp these learning objectives. They are able to learn and to help one another. There have been times with older students—freshmen, sophomores—where they said, “How long are we having this discussion?” and I just say, “I’ll let you know when you need to stop,” and they talked for half an hour and still had more to say, and I said, “OK, we have to stop.”

I ask them, “How long do you think you’ve been discussing?” They shrug and say, “We have no idea—10 minutes?” Then I tell them, “You’ve been talking for 30 minutes,” and they can’t believe that. I think it shows them how capable they are, and it really boosts their confidence.

Danielle: It’s also a great way to check for students’ understanding in a formative way. If you give them a test and, while you are grading it, you realize they don’t understand this book, it’s a stressful experience. But in a R.E.A.L. Discussion, as you walk from group to group and listen to what they’re talking about, you might think, “Oh, that student is missing the point,” or, “that student has interpreted that symbolism incorrectly,” and you can correct them then, instead of realizing it on an assessment.

Lily: Often, they’ll correct each other. There are times when I was observing and, as a teacher, it’s uncomfortable for us at first. I remember having that frog in my throat where I wanted to jump in and say, “Nope, that’s incorrect,” but I had to sit back. This was interesting: with my 8th graders last year, we were talking about the Reformation. One girl said something—we were talking about Martin Luther—and she said, “Didn’t he get assassinated?” I was sitting there thinking, “They’re thinking about MLK Jr., they’re thinking about MLK Jr.,” but I let it be. Then some of the other girls said, “No, that was Martin Luther King,” and another girl chimed in, “Wait, but how are they different?” They cleared it up themselves. I didn’t have to do anything, and that was much more of a learning moment for them.

I think these are all amazing examples. As you’re talking through what you’re seeing as the benefit of R.E.A.L., how do you see it connecting to the mission of Villa?

“I had one of my strongest students in the class—she’s the one who others could probably easily just turn to because they know she knows the answer. At the end of a R.E.A.L. Discussion, she said, ‘You guys changed my mind.’ She came into it with an idea, which was not an incorrect idea, but the people in her group managed to convince her that their thesis was correct.”
Danielle Thurm, teacher, Villa Duchesne (MO)

Rachel: Stacy (Director of Academics) and I gave a presentation to Sacred Heart educators in September about R.E.A.L. and how we use it in our school. One of our introductory pieces was how this practice connects with our Sacred Heart goals and criteria. Specifically, we commit ourselves to teaching the principles of nonviolence and conflict management, how to have respectful dialogue, helping students to develop empathy, and teaching and modeling respectful dialogue in support of clear, direct, open communication. We had all of these goals and criteria, and we could highlight all the ways in which R.E.A.L. Discussions really align with our mission as a Sacred Heart school and how we form young people and educate.

That’s wonderful. I’m curious about moments that stood out to you where you saw those principles in action—where the gears clicked for students, achieving the growth you envisioned? What did it look like for them and the other students?

Lily: I can think of one example, and I’m thinking of “personal growth in an atmosphere of wise freedom”—that’s one of our goals. There was a student last year who was very shy and lacked a lot of confidence in her academic work and had to work really hard to do well. But she was always a kid who had her assignments done—she just would never speak in class. She would never raise her hand. She always had her things filled out for me, but prior to R.E.A.L., she was always a really shy kid.

I remember thinking, “OK, she might hate this—making her sit in this group where she’ll have to talk in front of these other kids.” She always did her DQ Prep, and I told them they had to make a goal for themselves at the beginning of the discussion. She kept writing in her little reflection box: “I just wish I spoke this time.” At the third discussion, I came by and quietly pulled her aside and said, “You have great DQ prep; why don’t you say something?” For the fourth, I let her be and participate and watch, and all of a sudden, I heard her speaking. I was freaking out internally but trying to keep a chill face. I walked by her table—because I split them into small groups across a couple different classrooms—and she was talking! She wrote about her goal for herself that day: “I’m really proud of myself. I spoke.” Then she started speaking more, and by the second semester, she spoke regularly. That was a kid who needed that. I realized she never felt like she was smart enough to have anything to say, or that other kids would judge her, and they never did. That was a big a-ha moment for me: that personal growth looks different for every kid. I had kids who love to talk, and I suggested to them: “Maybe your goal is listening this time.” But this kid’s goal was to talk once, and it took her four discussions to build up to that, but she did, and it was small, but she did it.

That’s beautiful. What a great story!

Danielle: I have the opposite story. I had one of my strongest students in the class—she’s the one who others could probably easily just turn to because they know she knows the answer. At the end of a R.E.A.L. Discussion, she said, “You guys changed my mind.” She came into it with an idea, which was not an incorrect idea, but the people in her group managed to convince her that their thesis was correct. I love that she came into it open-minded enough instead of having the attitude of, “I’m the class leader; my idea is the correct idea.” At the end, she told them all, “You guys changed my mind.”

That’s so awesome!

Rachel: I’m thinking about a freshman this year. I actually wrote to her parents and told them that she’s very quiet in class, she’s very bright, but R.E.A.L. has given her an opportunity to step into a leadership role as a facilitator. She just naturally is very good at facilitating and pacing and inviting her classmates to share. For a student who’s somewhere in between—not too extroverted, not too introverted—she doesn’t dominate the conversation, but she also is not someone who never speaks. To see her naturally become a facilitator and use those skills was really beautiful. I think her family appreciated hearing that, because they may never get a chance to witness it, but I did and told them about it. That was a joyful moment for them to get that feedback.

Thank you all for sharing your stories and more so for all of the amazing work you are doing!