At R.E.A.L.® Discussion, understanding how higher education approaches dialogue and discourse gives us a glimpse of what lies ahead for our K-12 students. The habits we build in middle and high school shape how young people show up as thinkers and community members for life. That starts with intentionally teaching how to actively listen, articulate ideas, question assumptions, and make meaning together. 

I reached out to Kristi Clemens, Executive Director of Dartmouth Dialogues at Dartmouth and co-author of From Safe Spaces to Brave Spaces, to learn how those same goals are coming to life on campus through Dartmouth Dialogues. 

Liza Garonzik: I’m excited to hear about Dartmouth Dialogues, but first, tell us about your path. Why do you believe in dialogue? 

Kristi Clemens: Thank you for inviting me. One of the joys of this work is connecting with people outside of higher education. We know we’re just one moment in a person’s larger education journey. 

Speaking of that journey, I’m a first-generation college student who never expected to build a career in higher ed. As an undergrad, I worked in admissions and residence life and found my calling in helping students grow. I tend to find the most joy in problem-solving work, so I sometimes describe myself as the person who runs towards the fire rather than away from it, and that’s been a theme in various higher ed roles for more than 25 years now.

That perspective shapes how I see today’s students. When they show up on our campus, it’s often the first time they’re confronted with something unexpected, and they aren’t sure how to handle it. They struggle with having uncomfortable conversations or talking through important decisions. These moments of friction and growth are pivotal, yet more often, I see students opt out when faced with uncertainty. Instead of problem-solving or seeking help, they outsource decisions or avoid hard conversations together. Their communication skills have precipitously decreased over the past decade.

And nationally, our discourse isn’t offering healthy models. If not higher education, who will teach these skills? As a first-generation graduate whose life was changed by access and challenge, I take that responsibility seriously.

That certainly resonates with our view at R.E.A.L.® Discussion, where we talk a lot about the opportunity teachers have to ensure their students graduate high school and enter today’s rapidly changing world with essential communication skills. Turning to Dartmouth Dialogues: what’s the origin story, the goals, and what does programming look like?

Kristi: Many colleges are rethinking how to teach dialogue and discourse, but Dartmouth began this work earlier. In 2019, Dean of the Faculty Elizabeth Smith noticed faculty struggling to spark deep classroom discussion and to navigate conflict with one another. She convened a small group to explore how other institutions were teaching constructive dialogue and drafted a proposal for what became the Dartmouth Dialogue Project.

The pandemic paused progress, but the idea gained momentum when President Sian Beilock arrived in 2023. Having led similar work at Barnard, she immediately saw its potential. Later that year, as global events renewed the urgency for difficult conversations, particularly following October 7, Dartmouth’s Jewish Studies and Middle Eastern Studies departments modeled what constructive engagement could look like through public panels on Israel and Gaza. Their example helped shape Dartmouth Dialogues, officially launched in January 2024.

Today, the initiative brings dialogue practice into every corner of campus, from the Dickey Center’s Middle East Dialogues to the Rockefeller Center’s political conversations to student-led debates through the Dartmouth Political Union. With partners like the Constructive Dialogue Institute and StoryCorps’ One Small Step, the goal is simple but ambitious: to make dialogue a shared skill set, not a side program. We want “surround sound” across campus, not a “dialogue house.” 

You’re right. Too often, dialogue is opt-in, missing those who need it most and creating echo chambers. We use a “Conversation Lab” analogy, like the computer labs that once taught every student to type. Imagine if discussion skills were taught with the same intentionality. 

Kristi: We definitely agree—intentionality matters, especially for today’s students. Our Gen Z students bring perspectives shaped by COVID and today’s political climate. They want change but often don’t know where to start. From day one, we set the expectation that dialogue is part of being in this community and give them brave spaces to practice. 

Students value it, and some choose Dartmouth for it, yet time is a real barrier. Our 10-week quarters move fast. They want these skills but can’t add more to their plates, which reinforces the need to integrate dialogue into existing courses and experiences.

Looking ahead, we’re exploring ways to anchor this work in the first-year writing program, seminars, and our residential house communities. Building trust takes time, but students consistently tell us they want dialogue embedded, not treated as an add-on.

We see the same gap: the desire is there, the skills aren’t, and time is scarce. Live conversation is rarely the most efficient, which is why protecting time matters.

Kristi: I think that’s why we’re seeing many pitches for AI chatbots as dialogue tools. Sure, some AI tools can help, but they can reinforce unhelpful habits. My own seventh-grader rarely meets friends face-to-face; they text and trade voice notes. The norms we’re allowing to solidify concern me.

That’s why I appreciate K–12 partners who interrupt those norms: phone-free schools, prompts to talk to one another, and more typing and writing rather than dictation. Small interventions can steer us back toward healthy interpersonal interaction, though we still need to learn how to scale what works.

K–12 colleagues like Eric Hudson point out that human–AI interaction is a “new category of conversation.” We’ll need language for it and clarity about how it differs from human dialogue. AI has compelling use cases, and face-to-face conversation has biological ones. We can outsource tasks and pursue efficiency, but if we cannot be good friends, partners, debaters, or collaborators, we lose essential social fitness.

Kristi: Yes, I think about late-night residence hall debates that challenged ideas for the fun of it. But on small campuses these days, a single misstep can follow a student, chilling discourse. Even so, there’s something rejuvenating about face-to-face exchange that challenges and is challenged in return. I hope we find ways to preserve that energy.

We absolutely share that hope at R.E.A.L. It’s not just about conversation; it’s about preparing them for citizenship, leadership, and life. To keep the conversation going, follow R.E.A.L.® Discussion on LinkedIn.

What happens when we teach young people to truly listen, speak with courage, and connect face-to-face?

In Episode 8 of Millions of Conversations, hosted by Samar S. Ali and produced by NewsChannel 5 Network, Liza Garonzik joins the show to explore that big, deceptively simple question.

At a time when disconnection is everywhere—amplified by disconnection, polarization, and increased pressure on young people—Liza shares how R.E.A.L. Discussion® equips students and teachers with tools to reclaim conversation as a powerful, academic, and decidedly human practice.

What You’ll Hear in This Episode:

• Why face-to-face conversation is more than a soft skill; it’s a survival skill
• How R.E.A.L. turns listening and speaking into teachable, assessable practices
• What changes when students lead their own classroom discussions
• How communication tools ripple outward to kitchen tables, checkout lines, and future workplaces
• A hopeful, practical vision for education in a polarized, tech-saturated world

Why It Matters

We live in a moment defined by noise and an aching need for connection. And that need shows up everywhere: in classrooms, homes, neighborhoods, and institutions. This episode reminds us that the skills we need to rebuild trust and relationships aren’t automatic; they can be taught—and they often start with a single conversation.

If we want our kids to connect with others and lead with integrity, we have to teach them how. Face-to-face. In real time.”

Liza Garonzik, R.E.A.L. Discussion® Founder & CEO

Listen Now

Listen to the full conversation now on the Millions of Conversations podcast.

Prefer to watch?
Let’s Have a R.E.A.L. Discussion® with Liza Garonzik – Episode 8

Explore More

• Check out what teachers are saying about R.E.A.L.® in their classrooms
• Learn more about R.E.A.L. Discussion® and our approach
• Read about what we’re calling “The Other AI”
• Join our Community on LinkedIn where we love to discuss discussion

Hosted by Simon Noakes (Founder & CEO of Interactive Schools), the Inspiring Schools Podcast welcomes some of the world’s most influential educators to explore the future of education, leadership, innovation, AI in schools, evolving school structures, and more. Each episode offers fresh insight into the ideas shaping the education landscape.

In this episode, R.E.A.L. Discussion® founder & CEO Liza Garonzik joins Simon for a timely conversation about why teaching real-world communication skills is more urgent than ever—and how schools can do it with clarity, rigor, and purpose.

What You’ll Hear in This Episode

• Why speaking and listening are academic skills, not just social ones
• How R.E.A.L. Discussion® helps students lead class discussions with structure and confidence
• What schools can do now to prepare students for the human future

Why It Matters

The skills students need most—empathy, clarity, confidence, nuance—come from real conversation. And those skills can’t just be hoped for. They must be taught, practiced, and measured.

At R.E.A.L. Discussion®, we help schools do just that by embedding human connection into academic life and giving teachers and students the tools to make it stick.

Listen to the Full Episode Now

Let’s Keep Talking

• Learn More About R.E.A.L. Discussion®
• Hop on Liza’s calendar for a 1:1
• Visit our LinkedIn page to continue the conversation

Catherine: We love to start these conversations with innovative educators by throwing it back to your own educational experience. To start us off, take us back – what were you like as a student? Did you have any favorite teachers? 

Connie: As a student, I would say I was focused, curious, and happy. I genuinely loved school. I didn’t just enjoy it—I loved it.

Catherine: When you think back to those school years, especially your love for learning, did you have a favorite teacher? 

Connie: I had two. One was in fifth grade—Mr. Ziegler. He really believed in me. I was living in Joliet, near Chicago, and he made it clear that he thought I was smart. That motivated me to try even harder. He actually started teaching me Algebra separately, differentiating instruction and pulling me aside. That really boosted my confidence. The second was a college professor—Dr. DeGraff. He encouraged me to major in chemistry and always believed I should be a teacher. We had to do many seminars, and he was incredibly supportive and encouraging. So both of them had a huge impact.

Catherine: Is there anything specific about how they made you feel, or the way they taught, that you’ve tried to carry into your own teaching?

Connie: Absolutely. I strongly believe in the work of Carol Dweck and others—the idea that when children believe their teachers believe in them, and they feel genuinely cared for, they rise to meet high expectations. The combination of love and high standards can be transformative. I’ve definitely tried to incorporate that into my own teaching practice.

Catherine: How would you describe your approach to academic leadership?

Connie: As an academic leader, I constantly work to stay informed about new trends in pedagogy and technology, and I evaluate whether those trends can improve what we do. I’d describe myself as visionary, organized, and someone who can propel change. I can take ideas and turn them into actionable initiatives. I also love to learn—sometimes too much! But I’m very results-focused and data-driven. And I love to share and support others. Helping others grow and find their voice is really important to me.

Catherine: That’s a powerful mix—visionary leadership paired with action. So what education trends or emerging pedagogies are you most excited about right now? 

Connie: AI is top of mind for all of us right now. We’re all working through how to use it effectively—how to create meaningful assessments that go deeper and can’t just be done by AI.
I’m also passionate about integrating soft skills and transdisciplinary skills into the classroom. I’m especially excited about how AI can help teachers identify the development of those transdisciplinary skills—like creativity, problem-solving, empowered learning—within disciplinary contexts. We’re tracking what that looks like across our K–12 curriculum, including digital literacy and other future-ready competencies. The other big focus for me is raising the level of thinking in classroom tasks. When tasks are more complex and personalized, they’re more meaningful and less replicable by AI.

Generally, I am focused on three things: supporting ongoing professional development for teachers, helping teachers elevate the cognitive demand of classroom tasks, and creating intentional opportunities for student voice and agency—through discussion, collaboration, and sharing. That’s why R.E.A.L. matters so much! 

Catherine: What do you see as the power of discussion in today’s world?

Connie: It’s one of the highest priorities. Teaching students how to have meaningful, respectful conversations is essential, especially in today’s world. They need to learn to listen, share ideas, and disagree respectfully without confrontation. Our world desperately needs those skills.

Catherine: What are your hopes for students during those discussions?

Connie: With rising anxiety levels, it’s important to build trust first. Students need to feel safe. But with practice, their confidence grows. I start my class with a “wheel of names,” where one student shares a current event article they’ve read that week. Some students are nervous at first, so I let them submit a video instead. Interestingly, after doing a video once, many are more willing to speak up live next time. The growth in confidence and communication is amazing when students are given opportunities.

Catherine: From a leadership perspective, what are your hopes for teachers as they facilitate discussions?

Connie I hope they ensure every student has a voice—that discussions are balanced and that teachers are thoughtful in both their prompts and responses. Great prompts lead to thoughtful student responses. It’s about creating that space for deep thinking and participation.

Catherine: If someone knew absolutely nothing about R.E.A.L. Discussion, what would you tell them?

Connie: I’d say R.E.A.L. helps students build respectful communication skills, gives them the confidence to express their ideas, and fosters leadership. The R.E.A.L. model recognizes discussion as a developmental process, and the structure gives students the tools to engage meaningfully and prepares teachers to effectively evaluate skill growth over time. 

Catherine: Wow, Connie – what a powerful note to end on! You are right that at R.E.A.L. we take great care to help teachers approach discussion as a developmental process – not a single one-and-done event. Thank you for sharing your perspective today! 

Catherine: Thank you for joining me today! We often like to start off thinking back to your own time in school. How would you describe yourself as a student in three words?

Ralph: Solid B-plus. Even though I coasted for a while, the skills I developed—especially language and critical thinking—served me well. I started learning foreign languages in seventh grade, which is the grade I now teach. I continued through college—Spanish, then Latin, then Greek. That gave me a huge leg-up in grad school where most of my peers didn’t even have Latin or Greek.

Catherine: Do you have a particular interest in students who are coasting now? Do you try to push them?

Ralph: Yes, definitely. I don’t buy into the cliché of “be the teacher you needed.” I had great teachers. But I think kids have an intuitive sense of who “gets” them. They know which teachers are on their side, even if the grades don’t always reflect it.

Catherine: Shifting gears—what education trends are you most excited about, nationally or at GPS?

Ralph: Right now, it’s all about AI. When the President starts talking about $500 billion going into AI and the possibility of personalized medicine, it’s obvious this is going to affect education massively.

I was lucky—just before ChatGPT went public, I was in a course at Vanderbilt with a professor of emerging educational tech who gave us a heads-up. Since then, I’ve tried to be an early adopter.

AI can give near-instant, high-quality feedback. That’s huge. If I get 82 essays that are seven pages each, it’ll take me a few days to return feedback. But AI can do it immediately. So now we have to ask: Do we start with AI-generated writing and then focus on tweaking and improving it?

I’m especially interested in vocabulary. Prompt engineering requires precision. Recently, my students kept using the word “inhumane” when describing bad emperors in ancient China. I asked them to define it, and they struggled. Later in the discussion, one student said “untruthfulness” when she meant “liar.” These are vocabulary gaps that we have to address—because their ability to use the AI effectively depends on it.

Colleges are split. Some are going back to blue books and pencil-and-paper. Others assume AI is the starting point. We have to prepare students for both realities.

I’m also excited about the personalization and differentiation AI allows—having multiple strands of learning in one classroom. And monitoring tools. Right now, I use the R.E.A.L. routine of IRT Notes to track who’s being heard or overlooked in discussions. But imagine doing that in real time—seeing instantly who needs more engagement? That would be game-changing.

Our school is always going to be relationship-driven, but if AI can help us support our students more effectively, then that’s a win.

Catherine:
In today’s world—AI and otherwise—what do you see as the power of R.E.A.L. Discussion?

Ralph:
Here’s a great example: A mom emailed me recently because her daughter and seven friends were at a birthday party. They were supposed to go to a local arcade museum, but it got canceled due to a burst pipe. The mom didn’t know what to do, so she asked the girls what they wanted to do instead, and she left them alone to talk about it. When she came back to the table, they were taking turns speaking, using our hand signals from R.E.A.L. Discussion. She had never seen that before and was amazed.

The girls explained it—how everyone gets heard, how they make decisions as a group. That’s the power of it. Especially for this generation that missed out on key social development years due to COVID, R.E.A.L. Discussion gives them the tools to interact thoughtfully and equitably.

Some kids pick that up intuitively, but others need direct instruction. R.E.A.L. provides that. It teaches them how to listen, how to recognize voices that aren’t being heard, and how to engage meaningfully.

Catherine: Thinking specifically about your classroom—when you get those students in seventh grade, what are your hopes for them by the end of the year when it comes to discussion?

Ralph: My hope is that, by the end of the year, discussion becomes second nature to them. I want them to be so comfortable with the system they’ve been taught that they don’t even need to focus on the mechanics anymore.

Those first few discussions are all about figuring out the hand signals, aggressively agreeing with each other, stressing about note-taking—it’s chaotic. I’ll say things like, “Yes, when you talk about your dog, that is relating to real life—give yourself an R.”

But by the end of the year, I want them to feel confident enough that even if a science teacher says, “Hey, let’s have a discussion,” they know what to do. They may not go through the entire R.E.A.L. protocol, but the core skills are there, and they’ll carry those through the rest of their academic career.

My seminar class focuses on writing papers and giving presentations in front of an audience. That confidence begins in seventh grade. Same with research skills—when we start digging into challenging texts like excerpts from The Analects of Confucius, they’re learning how to process complex information.

Now with AI, I’ve taught them how to use it as a tool—to make sense of texts, extract key ideas, and support their thinking. They have to do the prep work, highlight excerpts, annotate them—and that directly sets them up for writing essays. Even though they’re just learning about adjectives and adverbs in English class, they begin to see how building a paragraph isn’t such a big leap.

I love those “a-ha” moments—when a student realizes, Oh, this isn’t too hard. I know how to do this. That’s what R.E.A.L. preparation looks like.

We put “Preparatory” in our school’s name for a reason—we mean it. We’re preparing them for that moment when they’re a college freshman, asked to write an essay on the spot while everyone else is panicking. That’s when the whole package pays off.

And I think R.E.A.L.came at exactly the right time—post-pandemic, when we needed to reinforce that every girl’s voice has meaning and value. And now, even better, their ideas are backed by evidence: girls say, “I believe this, and here’s why.” 

Catherine: If someone knew absolutely nothing about R.E.A.L., what would you tell them?

Ralph: R.E.A.L. is a system. And if you’re into systems thinking, it’s a vital part of building a classroom where your goal is to help students match claims with evidence—and build the confidence to express those ideas, first out loud, and later in writing.

But you have to be all in. Like with any system, you can’t just pick and choose. It’s not a salad bar—you can’t say, “We’re only going to work on listening and relating, but we’ll skip excerpting.” No. You need to commit, otherwise you don’t get the full experience. 

In my classroom, R.E.A.L. falls right in the middle of every unit. It’s the beating heart of the structure. They prep for it, they have the discussion, they reflect on it—it’s a full cycle.

If I were talking to someone brand new, I’d say: R.E.A.L. is a vessel. It delivers a specific set of skills in a process that’s relatively easy to learn and incredibly valuable once it becomes habitual.

Catherine:
That is a great description! 

Ralph:
The funny thing is, even though R.E.A.L. is this system, we all use it differently. Eamon in ninth grade, Weesie in sixth, me in seventh—we operate in completely different contexts. Even though we’re technically all following the same system – using the same language, routines, portfolios, metrics, there’s a lot of flexibility.

In one class, I don’t even break them into pods—we do full-class discussions because it works. In another class, we go half-and-half, because a big group just can’t stay on topic.

It’s flexible in what we talk about, too. We use R.E.A.L. to discuss everything—from advisory topics like where we’re going to lunch, to ancient world debates like “Who was the best pharaoh?” or “What’s the best way to maintain power?”

And it’s predictable. Middle schoolers thrive when they know what’s coming and can practice. It reduces anxiety, which is a major challenge. One thing people don’t talk about enough is the value in repetition. It’s not boring – kids love it. They see their own progress and I see it too, especially when their R.E.A.L. Student Survey responses display on my Teacher Dashboard. dashboard.

I never thought I would need or want data about my class discussions – but that data is amazing. It’s not about who talks and how much. It shows exactly how much the needle has moved. I can tell stories all day, but then I can show the numbers—like, “Here’s what happened with the introverts.” They’ve become confident that when they want to speak, they will be heard. They have found their voice.

Catherine: Thank you so much Ralph. I really appreciate your time. You’re always so thoughtful, and it’s just wonderful talking with you.

Catherine: Jim, we are so glad to have you – you have been a visionary leader in the R.E.A.L.® program since the very beginning and mentored other R.E.A.L.® Program leaders along the way. Beyond grateful! To kick off this conversation, where did you grow up and where are you now?  

Jim: I am from Rochester, New York, originally, but I’ve been at Blair Academy for 26 out of the last 35 years. I am currently the English Department Chair, but have worn many different hats.

Catherine: Thinking back to those Rochester days, can you describe yourself as a student in three words?

Jim: Interested, noncommittal, and engaged.

Catherine: Did you have a favorite teacher or teachers? And why?

Jim: I did. I had an English teacher named Alan Pavlik who challenged me to be engaged in the classroom—not just in discussion but in actively doing things. He is still alive and living in Hollywood now. Another teacher, Michael Lasser, taught me how to take an aggressive approach to analyzing literature rather than a passive, conversational one. Both of these teachers made a big difference for me, and I’ve communicated with both of them in the last two years.They were the right teachers at the right time for me.

Catherine: Thinking about your teaching and leadership now, how would you describe your academic leadership style?

Jim: I begin by recognizing the foundational tension between autonomy and alignment. People teach at a school like Blair because they  want a certain level of autonomy. They don’t come here to be locked into a rigid curriculum. So, I try to protect that autonomy while also encouraging alignment in areas where it’s essential.

Discussion is a perfect example of threading that particular needle. Every veteran teacher at a school like ours  thinks they’re already great at leading discussions. But how do they actually know? My sister, who is a management consultant, always asks her clients, “How do you know?” Ok, so the kids like your class because of the discussions? Well, that’s one piece of feedback, but it’s not actually an indicator of skill development. So the question is how do we know that our discussion methods are doing what we want them to do? We need a shared language and a system. 

With R.E.A.L. Discussion, which has evolved into Blair Academy’s version of “Harkness” method, we can measure discussion. We can track involvement through Dialogic and observable behaviors. R.E.A.L. helps students learn to recognize discussion dynamics and step up to fill different roles — there’s always a student for example, who steps up as the “traffic cop” to manage the flow of conversation. That’s when I sit back and say to the kids, “You got this.”

When some teachers are resistant to the more structured aspects of R.E.A.L.,  I always remind them that I changed my own approach when I found a better way. So, when it comes to Academic Leadership, I focus on maintaining both alignment and autonomy— ensuring teachers still feel excited about their own lesson designs  while also adhering to best practices like structured discussion.

Catherine: Those observations resonate deeply with patterns we have seen across many schools. Thank you for saying them ‘out loud!’ So, with all of that in mind, what are your hopes for students and teachers when it comes to discussion?

Jim: For teachers, in the age of AI, the heavy lifting has to happen in the classroom and off-screen. Homework should be formative — preparing students for the next class rather than just regurgitating information. This new premium on discussion means that teachers need to assess discussion in a meaningful way – not just on instinct or group grades. Department Chairs must manage this change and equip teachers with new tools for equitable assessment of discussion.

For students, I want R.E.A.L. to make discussion a welcome opportunity  for those who usually fear speaking up in class. I have two brilliant students right now who were previously hesitant to speak up. R.E.A.L. gives them the structure and encouragement to contribute. At the same time, it teaches students who are like I was — the ones who always dominate discussions — to step back, listen, and share the floor.

Catherine: Absolutely. R.E.A.L. supports both ends of the spectrum—giving some students the courage to speak while encouraging others to listen.

Jim: Exactly. It was really gratifying the other day when my advanced class, which I don’t explicitly train in R.E.A.L, naturally asked me, “Do we need a DQ Prep [the R.E.A.L. vocabulary describing preparation routines] sheet for this?” They had internalized the process in their ninth and tenth grade classes, and they held a thoughtful, structured 45-minute discussion with very little off-topic chatter. That’s when I knew the work was paying off.

Catherine: That’s fantastic. If you had to summarize the power of R.E.A.L. Discussion in three words, what would they be?

Jim: Three words to describe R.E.A.L.® Discussion? Civilizing, inclusive, and a way to recognize complexity. It is a structure that helps students reject oversimplified answers and make room for nuance.

Catherine: Those are great words. It’s almost like you are an English teacher! Ok, for someone who knows nothing about R.E.A.L. how would you explain it?

Jim: R.E.A.L.® Discussion is  “Harkness” with training wheels for Gen-Z — a structured way for students to conduct thoughtful discussions on complex issues, and for teachers to effectively assess those discussions. It is both assignable and assessable. 

Catherine: What a great metaphor! Thanks, Jim, for that punchy last line and for these wide-ranging reflections. For anyone wondering, the “Harkness” method Jim is referencing was originally developed at Phillips Exeter Academy and you can learn more about it here. Jim, thanks again – we appreciate your leadership and appetite for real discussion about academic leadership. . 

Emily: I’m so excited to get to talk to you today! Tell me a little bit about your professional journey and how discussion became a topic of interest for you.

Caitlin: Before I began working at Blair Academy, I taught first at a school in the South Bronx for 11 years. The school I worked at pulled from the surrounding neighborhoods and had a 98% poverty rate. We considered it a victory just to get kids through the door. But, for me, the one thing I always enjoyed in English classes was discussion in general. So I did a lot of completely unstructured discussion in ways that worked for my kids in the South Bronx. That kind of conversational approach to literature really helped them, and my philosophy was that if I’m doing my job, I’m teaching beyond what the Regents exam expects. So I had a really good rapport with them and by the time they got to taking the Regents exam, they were scoring in the top 30%.

Then I taught abroad in Istanbul, Turkey for ten years. While I was in Istanbul, a colleague introduced me to Harkness. It was interesting because none of the kids I was teaching were native English speakers, so the students were always self-conscious about their English proficiency and how they sounded in the discussion.

When I first got to Blair and was introduced to R.E.A.L., I was instantly interested in it because of the use of nonverbal gestures and how scaffolded it is. I felt it would have been so helpful in Istanbul, and would have really supported those students who might feel self conscious about speaking. 

Emily: The first time you tried a Harkness-style discussion, what were you excited about and what were you nervous about? 

Caitlin: I liked that it provided a structure and that students had to prepare ahead of time with their own questions and things like that. Discussion prior to that was kind of “off the cuff”. But giving them that prep time to think ahead of time was really helpful. The population in Istanbul was completely different from the population in the South Bronx, and I went from one of the most underprivileged student populations to a very privileged student population, so different things worked differently. But there were also a lot of commonalities. 

Emily: What sparked your interest in studying this further? What made you decide that you wanted to incorporate discussion as part of your graduate school research? 

Caitlin: The school where I taught in Istanbul was an English Medium School, meaning that students were not native English speakers, but they were taking their classes in English. In a class size of about 20 to 24, you’d have a few kids who were completely fluent, a few kids who had very little English proficiency, and then a large range in between. And I would be teaching them a standard ninth grade literature course. 

Emily: What were your strategies to bridge those differences in English language proficiency? 

Caitlin: It was important to build a community within the classroom where students felt comfortable enough to take risks. Many students were very risk averse because of the nature of it being a very exam-driven school environment. Students felt that if you made a small mistake your whole future has been decided for you in the direction you don’t want. It was very important to me for students to feel comfortable speaking up, and know that they had something important to say, even if they were not going to say it in perfect English. 

Emily: From this experience, what challenge did you feel like you wanted to try and tackle? What is your specific research question? 

Caitlin: I’m in the EdD program through the University of Bath in England, which is a really interesting program because you can design within your own areas of interest. My research title is “Gender and Interaction in English Medium Instruction Class Discussions at a Turkish Secondary School.” I started by recording class discussions for a core group of 10 or 12 students from their prep year all the way through junior and senior year. So I have five years’ worth of discussion that I’ve been transcribing.

Once I finish the transcriptions, I’m going to be looking at the linguistic choices that were made in the prep year versus in the upper levels, and the patterns in a humanities class with linguistic choices. I’m looking at how students are entering the discussion, what phrases they are using, and then to see if there are any patterns that are tied to gender. Turkey has very strict gender roles, but they’re learning an American style education in English. A lot of kids would say, “oh, I’m a completely different person in English than I am in Turkish.” There’s some data out there that talks about how girls start participating less once they hit puberty, and there’s a lot of discussion at the university level of how women in business courses or science courses aren’t speaking up as much. However, there is less research about what happens during those pivotal high school years. Is it because of the way the teachers are interacting with the students? Is it the way the students are interacting with the material?  

Emily: How are you handling the teacher interactions too? Because it feels like that is a component of all of this. 

Caitlin: Since they were doing Harkness-style discussions across the board, there was very limited teacher intervention in the discussions. But I’m looking at the linguistic choices the teachers made when they’re speaking to a female student versus a male student. I was also using Equity Maps and I have all of those webs as well, so I can look back and I can trace when each student interacted with other students and how many times. 

Emily: When you arrived at Blair and started to try out R.E.A.L. Discussion with your students, what felt the same and what felt different? 

Caitlin: I think the biggest difference is the nonverbal communication. Trying to set up a R.E.A.L. Discussion with my freshman the first time, it was chaos everywhere at first. I told them, “just trust me. We’re going to try this for 10 minutes.” Some of the boys have really gotten into it with the nonverbal communication, but the girls are still shy. Since I’m still tracking all my data with Equity Maps, each discussion I throw up all of the webs and the data for the kids to see at the end of every discussion. I have students look at what happened during the discussion and reflect together on what happened. I’ll point to a pattern and ask them, “what happened here? Why didn’t we pay attention to this person? He was totally waving.”

Emily: What is their reaction to that? 

Caitlin: They find it fascinating! I also took all of the skills from the workbooks, and I’ve programmed in my own rubric into the Equity Maps. I try to trace what they’re doing, especially the NVC’s when they do them. So I’ll say to a student, “you had five NVCs here, and you did this, and you did that.” The kids love that, too, and getting all those minute details leads to a great discussion about the discussion. I also had the kids do a R.E.A.L. Discussion when the parents came for Parents’ weekend, and the parents thought it was amazing. 

Emily: That is all so neat to hear. Final question: where will you go with your discussion practice from here? 

Caitlin: I haven’t actually given them a grade yet on any of their R.E.A.L. Discussions, so that’s one thing I’m trying to figure out. I did create a rubric, but I haven’t used it yet. I also want to see R.E.A.L. in science classes and see how it could work outside of the humanities class. It could be great for the sophomores taking biology since they’ve been doing R.E.A.L. in their English classes and already know the system.

Emily: Caitlin, thank you so much for sharing your story and details about your research with me! I wish you the best of luck on all of the transcribing, which I’m sure is going to be a tremendous amount of work! 

Catherine: What is your name and hometown?

Sumner McCallie: I am Sumner McCallie, Dean of Faculty and Curriculum at the McCallie School in Chattanooga, Tennessee,

Catherine: Hi Sumner, we’re so excited to get to talk to you today! I wanted to start by asking about your path to your current position. Tell us about your journey to become the Dean of Faculty and Curriculum at McCallie.

Sumner: I graduated from college and was heading to Vanderbilt Medical School, but I deferred for a year. I’d grown up overseas, mainly in Africa and the Middle East because my dad had been in the Foreign Service, and I felt that I definitely wanted to teach overseas. So I taught for a year in Switzerland, and although I knew it wasn’t a school I was going to stay at, I was really excited about education. I came back to the states and did two years in an Outdoor Adventure camp and loved working with the kids. I decided against medical school, got my Master’s Degree in Education at Vanderbilt, and then came directly to McCallie to teach. I have been here at McCallie for my entire career.

Catherine: Did you start as a classroom teacher?  

Sumner:  I started as an academic counselor actually. We have an extensive Learning Center at McCallie, and if students are struggling with anything they can seek guidance or extra help there.I was in that role for three years. Then I stepped into leading the boarding side, then academic dean, and now Dean of Faculty and Curriculum! 

Catherine: Which education trends are you most excited about right now? 

Sumner: There are many academic trends I could talk about, but one thing that I’ve seen and excites me is the emphasis on social emotional wellness. At McCallie the seniors give chapel talks, and there is a big difference between the talks ten years ago and the talks now in terms of the level of vulnerability and their focus on being mentally healthy. The fact that these students can talk about how they are feeling and share that with the school is just really encouraging and exciting. 

Catherine: How do you see discussion as an important piece of the culture and curriculum at McCallie? 

Sumner: I think it’s different at different ages! In sixth grade, we have students entering McCallie from 32 different schools. For some of these students, it may feel like stepping into an intimidating environment, and we want students to feel comfortable and confident to be themselves. Our sixth grade English curriculum really focuses on that, and uses discussion as a social emotional development tool. The focus is on interacting with others, and that peer-to peer-connection that happens during discussion. 

In the ninth grade, the focus of discussion starts to evolve to be more than just figuring out who the other people in the room are, but also using class readings and materials to understand oneself. The best way to do that is to have conversations that involve more vulnerability.

By 12th grade, which is what I teach, I need them to be doing something with the information we cover in class to move an idea forward. So instead of the emphasis on listening, I need them to be able to build a communal responsible discussion. It’s not just building community in the class, it’s not just discovering who they are, now it’s about  looking outward and trying to make a difference. Students use the discussion as a way of testing out things. They are trying to enter into discussion in different contexts. This is why I love R.E.A.L., it has so many different options for the teachers to say, “because I know my students and what kind of discussion structure they need depending on where they are in their educational path,I’m going to take that structure and emphasize slightly different pieces of it.”

Catherine: What are your specific hopes for students when it comes to discussion? 

Sumner: There is no doubt that we need students to feel that they matter. That’s a foundation. They need to recognize that they have a voice, and that their voice is important, and they need to feel that they can share that voice in any space that they’re in. They also need to recognize that other students have voices, and therefore they need to be thoughtful about hearing and listening to their classmates. I think that that’s the foundational piece: for students to recognize that discussions are not just an academic tool and another way to teach something but also an avenue for them to build up their own confidence and to recognize other people.

Catherine: How would you describe your academic leadership style and your work with adults? 

Sumner: I would say the approach is similar in a sense, in that first, what I’m trying to do for the teachers is exactly what I want them to do for the students, instill in them a confidence that their voice is important, that they are relevant, and what they’re bringing to the space is important. The second is that they’re bringing a specific set of questions that their discipline raises, that students need to be thinking about. I need teachers to be thoughtful about what those questions are and truly ask themselves, what does their discipline care about? What does their discipline ask about? How does that shape the way in which the questions of the course are structured, and therefore how those questions relate to students?  My job is to do two things. First,  to encourage faculty to think about those levels, and second, to get things out of their way that prevent them from taking time to think about those levels. If I were to summarize my approach, it is to make people feel empowered, feel like they have autonomy, and feel like they are proceeding with purpose. 

Catherine: When you think about your work as a trainer with R.E.A.L. what is your approach to working with teachers in that capacity? 

Sumner: With each teacher, I really try to understand why and how R.E.A.L. could be useful to them. There is a common vocabulary to R.E.A.L. and a common conversation that is happening during the training, but the most important part is really listening to teachers explain why those particular skills could be useful for their classroom. So a lot of the training is both listening closely to where teachers are coming from, what they seem to care about, both personally and then for their students, and then working with them to adapt R.E.A.L. to their classrooms and their needs.  

Catherine: To someone who knows nothing about R.E.A.L., what would you tell them about the program and why you joined the advisory board? 

Sumner:  I think frequently teachers come to R.E.A.L. training, and think it is another method of getting academic material across. Although it does help students with content understanding, it is actually a process and a set of skills that students can learn that allows for a deeper understanding of content, but extends so far beyond the classroom and their academics. 

Catherine: Thank you so much for your insights and wisdom, Sumner! 

Liza: Thanks so much for being here. Tell us about your path in education and your purpose. What’s been your true north, Bridget? 

Bridget: My path is a little quirky because I never thought I would work in education. In college, I majored in international business and finance and thought I wanted to be in corporate America. Well, I got to corporate America, and I hated it. I knew that it wasn’t for me almost instantly. I was an athlete in college, and I was still pursuing that after college, and my coach shared that a school needed a part-time coach for track.

I thought to myself, well, I don’t love kids but I should try this out, and I absolutely loved it, especially working with students. After a while, they offered me a full-time job as a registrar, then eventually I moved into admissions, which I was so excited about because I love to travel.  I got to learn so much about boarding schools in that period of time in my life, made so many friends, and traveled the world. I didn’t know that boarding school was an option when I was in high school, so traveling and sharing with students about boarding schools and helping them think about their education options was extremely rewarding. 

I went from living on campus and working in the admissions office to being a Dean of Students. I loved it so much, but at first it was extremely hard work. I had come from admissions and really did not have any experience in discipline, and I didn’t know what I didn’t know, so it was a really big transition both professionally and mindset wise. 

What I realized through that process is that there needed to be some support and professional development for deans, and that’s how the Deans’ Roundtable was created. 

 I created it with two other folks who were deans at the time, and we began running it in 2012. And, in my opinion: there is still not enough professional development out there for deans! I love the connection and relationship building that happens within Deans’ Roundtable. When you talk about a North Star, that would be mine – connecting people and providing support so that deans can foster a safe and supportive environment and community for kids. 

Liza: Wow – what a story, Bridget! You have held so many different kinds of roles in schools – from your perspective, what is the role that discussion plays in school life? 

Bridget: It is so important for many different reasons. First, when you have people coming from all different backgrounds, all different schools, especially in the boarding school environment, the importance of discussion extends far beyond academics. If you’re a ninth grader who’s come from a background that doesn’t exercise the discussion muscle, or you’re a student that is not comfortable speaking up in class, learning discussion skills is so important and so helpful. These discussion skills are the groundwork for  knowing how to have a conversation with each other, how to advocate for themselves, and how to make friends. Discussion skills are life skills. 

Liza:  I appreciate your empathy with the student experience, and I can tell you’ve spent a lot of time with kids. My guess is that as a dean, you’ve had to have a lot of difficult discussions. Do you have tips or strategies that you use for managing those hard conversations? 

Bridget:One thing I’ve learned is that you can write out what you will say. If it is a really important conversation, one that you haven’t had before, find someone you can role-play with to practice saying the words out loud first.The other thing is making sure to breathe and take intentional pauses. I’ve learned that you don’t have to jump into the conversation full speed ahead. If you say something, and feel that it is not quite what you meant to say, say that, and start over from the beginning of your point. I think sometimes we feel the pressure to be perfect in these moments, especially during difficult conversations and that is just not realistic. The other thing I’ve learned is to try to take the emotion out of conversations and deal just with the facts. That doesn’t mean you’re devoid of emotion, of course we are not robots, but there is a time and place for emotions and I think in difficult conversations it is important to keep your emotions at an even keel. If you are the person delivering the “difficult” information, you are also the manager of the conversation and in that role, you need to check your own emotions.  

Liza: What I really appreciated about all of those like a common thread connecting all of those comments is self-awareness. It’s similar to what we teach students in the classroom with R.E.A.L. We give students sentence stems for moments of disagreement or moments when they feel challenged! At R.E.A.L, we think a lot about how the world is in a “conversation crisis” right now. What challenges do you see specifically when it comes to school and conversations? What challenges do students and faculty face when it comes to discussion? 

Bridget: We’re in this era where people are so comfortable saying things behind the screen, but when it comes to actually having real conversations face to face, we are struggling.  It’s uncomfortable because we don’t do it enough, and students especially don’t have good role models right now in terms of what kindness in discussion looks like, or what civil discourse looks like. Trying to reign all of that in on school campuses is really tricky, especially when we haven’t taken the time to talk honestly about where we are in terms of discussion in our community, or have school norms around discussion. Schools need to say “this is how we treat each other” and “this is how we interact with each other” on a daily basis, you can’t just do it at the beginning of the school year, or when a difficult conversation happens! If you don’t, then you can’t get upset with kids who navigate hard conversations poorly – or, worse, avoid them in-person and handle everything via text or groupchat! 

Liza: Agree! When you think about the mechanics of culture on campus, how we treat each other in conversation is the bedrock of the culture. So amidst this conversation crisis, it feels so critical in schools to be providing guardrails for students in how to talk with one another, and providing guidance around communication norms that are intergenerational. There are no models in the external world, so it’s up to schools to define how we communicate on campus. 

Tell us about the current work and mission of Deans’ Roundtable

Bridget: As I said, we really felt like there was a void of professional development for Deans of Students in particular. Deans’ Roundtable gets deans together to talk about hot topics, to commiserate, to network, and most importantly to provide a support system for each other. We think about it as a group that you can call to say “Have you ever had this happen?” “How are you putting this in your handbook?”  “What policy are you doing for this?”

There was a strong reception and a vibrant community, so we’ve expanded, which is exciting. Now, we have a weekly blog, a new podcast series, and an online platform for what we call Student Life professionals. Our community has grown to include class deans, directors of residential life, directors of student life, and all these other folks who work outside the classroom and have important interactions with students. We are also launching a new Student Life Assessment tool for schools which will allow school to get real data on what’s happening outside of the classroom on their campuses! 

Liza: Thank you for sharing all of that! It is very clear to me that you began this work by listening to what folks needed and you are passionate about the work you all do. Thank you, Bridget, for being with us today. We’re so lucky to be discussing with you.

Bridget: I am so honored to be here, and thanks so much for having me.

For more on the Deans’ Roundtable you can check out their website here, email Bridget at bridget@deansroundtable.org, and learn more about their conference this summer here. 

Shannon Schmidt is the Director of the The Amabel Boyce ’70 Center for Learning and Thriving at Garrison Forest School (MD) and a Faculty Advisory Board member at R.E.A.L.® Discussion. We interviewed Shannon about her approach to leadership and how building discussion skills align with the goals of the Boyce Center. What follows is a conversation between Shannon and R.E.A.L.® Partnerships and Program Manager Catherine Dragone. This conversation has been lightly edited for clarity. 

Catherine: Shannon, could you tell me your name, position, and your hometown? 

Shannon:  I’m Shannon Schmidt, the Director of the Boyce Center for Learning and Thriving at Garrison Forest School in Maryland, and I am from Queens, New York.

Catherine: Thinking back, what three words would you use to describe yourself as a student?

Shannon: Enthusiastic, curious, diligent.

Catherine: All words that I would still use to describe you! Did you have a favorite teacher? 

Shannon: Yes, my fifth grade teacher Mrs. Renner-Smith. She really saw the strengths in all of her students. She had been a writer before she was a teacher, and I loved writing as a kid, so she was fabulous at giving me a lot of opportunities to write and grow. Her ability to really connect with my personal strengths and interests is something that I try to do as a teacher, and is my goal at the Boyce Center – to see each girl as an individual and have the Center be a place where students can foster their strengths. 

Catherine: How would you describe your academic leadership style?

Shannon: Collaborative first and foremost. I’ve always felt that you can have an impact on the students in front of you, but if you can really be collaborative and get a whole team on board, you can have such a greater impact on the whole school. If I had to summarize my approach as a leader it would be: find the strengths in both students and teachers, and get everyone on board rowing in the same direction so that we can make progress and keep students at the center. 

Catherine: Tell us about the Boyce Center, and how R.E.A.L. relates to the Boyce Center mission and vision. 

Shannon: At the Boyce Center we have three main areas we focus on: academic support, growth and enrichment, and wellness and well being. What is special about R.E.A.L. is that it really does support all three of these, with data that demonstrates how R.E.A.L. is impacting each of these “buckets.”

Catherine: Wow R.E.A.L. really centers a lot of those goals!  What do you see as the power of discussion in today’s world for the girls at Garrison Forest?

Shannon: I think discussion, and particularly R.E.A.L., gives the girls the language to voice  and own their opinion, and respectfully disagree with people. I think sometimes our girls are afraid to wade into difficult conversations because they don’t want to say the wrong thing, or they don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. Most students don’t yet have the language, or sometimes the confidence, to have these conversations. One of the powers of R.E.A.L. is that practice that I was talking about, instead of just talking about what discussion should look like, or telling them it’s okay to disagree – but really having them practice those skills. I really connect with Liza’s metaphor that students don’t need computer labs anymore, they need discussion labs! It’s so powerful to have students reflect on their own growth on these skills too. 

Catherine: When it comes to discussion, what are your hopes for students? 

Shannon: My hope for the students is that they feel like their voice matters in their classrooms.  I want every student to feel like their voice, and all their classmates,’ are a valuable part of the community they are in.  With that, I want them to listen to others, not just to respond, but also to understand other perspectives. 

Catherine: What about your hopes for the Garrison Forest teachers using R.E.A.L. in their classrooms? 

Shannon: I hope that R.E.A.L. helps teachers feel empowered and brave enough to have difficult conversations in their classrooms. Our teachers care so much about their students and their students’ learning, and I hope that R.E.A.L. gives them the tools to approach those conversations and feel confident navigating them. I’ve also heard from teachers in the past that they would like tools for how to support quieter or introverted students in discussions, and so my hope for teachers is to really lean on the structures of R.E.A.L. to meet the needs of all our learners. 

Catherine: For someone who knows absolutely nothing about R.E.A.L. yet, what would you tell them? 

Shannon: R.E.A.L. is a framework for discussion in classrooms, not a curriculum. It can be used in any humanities class to help guide conversation and structure it in a way that is more productive and meaningful for students. I think it’s unique to have a framework that works with lower schoolers all the way up through upper school. So I would also tell people that R.E.A.L. can be a unifying thread throughout campus – and it has been very exciting to have that here at Garrison Forest. 

Catherine: We are pedagogy nerds here at R.E.A.L.; even beyond discussion…so we have to ask: which education trends or teaching pedagogies do you feel are at the center of your work right now?

Shannon: One thing that I’m doing a lot with right now is looking at how students learn and how to make learning stick for students.  We’re really centering that at the Boyce Center.  We’ve done a lot of work with retrieval practice, spacing, and interleaving, which leads into my focus of “ how do we get students learning by doing?” 

 I’m also working with teachers on how to give students feedback in a way that supports their learning and encourages their growth. We’re talking a lot about helping kids develop self-awareness and reflection skills around what it is that they’re learning and what their goals are. 

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Catherine: Thank you so much, Shannon. What a compelling vision for discussion skills leading to learning and thriving at Garrison Forest!